I have tried to contact and ask as many ordinary Ethiopians as possible from diverse ethnic backgrounds and social and age groups and also some Tigreans I know. It seems there is a wide agreement on both sides that Tigray and Ethiopian should go their separate ways. It is amazing how the overwhelming majority on both sides support the separation. Most Ethiopians I asked have a hard time seeing Tigreans separate from the TPLF which they remember as brutal and cruel. Some even told me they don't want to hear anything about Tigray and are sick and tired of it. The same frustration and anger is also on the tigrean side. Some of them don't want to hear even the word Ethiopia.
The question is what is more difficult: to achieve a reconciliation while Tigray is part of Ethiopia or to try to be two neighboring countries that can coexist peacefully. Personally, I really don't see how Tigreans and other Ethiopians will reconcile and live together. Ethiopians hate TPLF to death and majority love PM Abiy on the other hand Tigreans hate PM Abiy and the current Ethiopian government to death and love TPLF.
It is not only that both hate what the other loves but behind these feelings lie a very different outlook and understanding of where the future of the country should go and is very difficult to reconcile. Even if both somehow try to live as one country, the constant suspicion and mistrust will ultimately lead to yet another conflict. This is no more a conflict of only elites but both sides have huge popular support.
So, how about a peaceful separation? Why stick together when we are so different in how we see the future for our country? If we separate peacefully, the only problem we would have will be border disputes but when we are together we will have border disputes and many many other political problems, rivalry and instability as well.
I think Tigreans need to take the coming rainy season as an opportunity to reflect on who they are and what they want and if what they want is also really what Ethiopians want too. They should really take the idea of becoming independent very seriously so that they can focus on development and not constantly fight with Ethiopians forever.
There is a saying "Better [to have] a frightful end than a fright without end". Let's end this endless nightmare peacefully once and for all and go our separate ways so that we all can focus on development and on pulling our people from poverty and suffering.
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha loser Cadre ! just keep on talking shi'it that doesn't give sense. Your master, Abiy and the whole bunch of inept cabinet and gov officials the same... Now the TPLF decides the fate of Tigray, not your MF lame gov... If I were you, I could have shut my mouth and re-structure my thinking process that is distorted by lies, and lies, and lies!!!!Loltemari wrote: ↑30 Jun 2021, 21:25I have tried to contact and ask as many ordinary Ethiopians as possible from diverse ethnic backgrounds and social and age groups and also some Tigreans I know. It seems there is a wide agreement on both sides that Tigray and Ethiopian should go their separate ways. It is amazing how the overwhelming majority on both sides support the separation. Most Ethiopians I asked have a hard time seeing Tigreans separate from the TPLF which they remember as brutal and cruel. Some even told me they don't want to hear anything about Tigray and are sick and tired of it. The same frustration and anger is also on the tigrean side. Some of them don't want to hear even the word Ethiopia.
The question is what is more difficult: to achieve a reconciliation while Tigray is part of Ethiopia or to try to be two neighboring countries that can coexist peacefully. Personally, I really don't see how Tigreans and other Ethiopians will reconcile and live together. Ethiopians hate TPLF to death and majority love PM Abiy on the other hand Tigreans hate PM Abiy and the current Ethiopian government to death and love TPLF.
It is not only that both hate what the other loves but behind these feelings lie a very different outlook and understanding of where the future of the country should go and is very difficult to reconcile. Even if both somehow try to live as one country, the constant suspicion and mistrust will ultimately lead to yet another conflict. This is no more a conflict of only elites but both sides have huge popular support.
So, how about a peaceful separation? Why stick together when we are so different in how we see the future for our country? If we separate peacefully, the only problem we would have will be border disputes but when we are together we will have border disputes and many many other political problems, rivalry and instability as well.
I think Tigreans need to take the coming rainy season as an opportunity to reflect on who they are and what they want and if what they want is also really what Ethiopians want too. They should really take the idea of becoming independent very seriously so that they can focus on development and not constantly fight with Ethiopians forever.
There is a saying "Better [to have] a frightful end than a fright without end". Let's end this endless nightmare peacefully once and for all and go our separate ways so that we all can focus on development and on pulling our people from poverty and suffering.
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
Brother tolcha, can you also debate and have serious discussion other than name calling and insults? What can I say, you failed to bring your case or debate and it’s hard to respond to people who know only name calling and insulting. Stop being ባዶ ቅል ራስ
tolcha wrote: ↑30 Jun 2021, 22:06Ha ha ha ha ha ha loser Cadre ! just keep on talking shi'it that doesn't give sense. Your master, Abiy and the whole bunch of inept cabinet and gov officials the same... Now the TPLF decides the fate of Tigray, not your MF lame gov... If I were you, I could have shut my mouth and re-structure my thinking process that is distorted by lies, and lies, and lies!!!!Loltemari wrote: ↑30 Jun 2021, 21:25I have tried to contact and ask as many ordinary Ethiopians as possible from diverse ethnic backgrounds and social and age groups and also some Tigreans I know. It seems there is a wide agreement on both sides that Tigray and Ethiopian should go their separate ways. It is amazing how the overwhelming majority on both sides support the separation. Most Ethiopians I asked have a hard time seeing Tigreans separate from the TPLF which they remember as brutal and cruel. Some even told me they don't want to hear anything about Tigray and are sick and tired of it. The same frustration and anger is also on the tigrean side. Some of them don't want to hear even the word Ethiopia.
The question is what is more difficult: to achieve a reconciliation while Tigray is part of Ethiopia or to try to be two neighboring countries that can coexist peacefully. Personally, I really don't see how Tigreans and other Ethiopians will reconcile and live together. Ethiopians hate TPLF to death and majority love PM Abiy on the other hand Tigreans hate PM Abiy and the current Ethiopian government to death and love TPLF.
It is not only that both hate what the other loves but behind these feelings lie a very different outlook and understanding of where the future of the country should go and is very difficult to reconcile. Even if both somehow try to live as one country, the constant suspicion and mistrust will ultimately lead to yet another conflict. This is no more a conflict of only elites but both sides have huge popular support.
So, how about a peaceful separation? Why stick together when we are so different in how we see the future for our country? If we separate peacefully, the only problem we would have will be border disputes but when we are together we will have border disputes and many many other political problems, rivalry and instability as well.
I think Tigreans need to take the coming rainy season as an opportunity to reflect on who they are and what they want and if what they want is also really what Ethiopians want too. They should really take the idea of becoming independent very seriously so that they can focus on development and not constantly fight with Ethiopians forever.
There is a saying "Better [to have] a frightful end than a fright without end". Let's end this endless nightmare peacefully once and for all and go our separate ways so that we all can focus on development and on pulling our people from poverty and suffering.
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/worl ... iopia.htmlEven if the conflict ends soon, Mr. Debretsion said, Tigray’s future as part of Ethiopia is in doubt. “The trust has broken completely,” he said. “If they don’t want us, why should we stay?”
Still, he added, nothing has been decided: “It depends on the politics at the center.”
Ethiopians don't want anything to do TPLF, never ever! Tigray on the other hand can't live without TPLF. So, the best scenario is to work for a peaceful co-existence as good and cooperating neighboring countries that focus on developing their respective countries. The border issue is much easier than living together in hate and constant fighting. Hopefully Debretsion sees the hard reality that in the last 30 years TPLF completely destroyed the political bound between Ethiopia and Tigray and that the best political solution is to discuss about peaceful divorce.
-
Za-Ilmaknun
- Member
- Posts: 4487
- Joined: 15 Jun 2018, 17:40
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
How is the border issue much easier ? When in fact the center of the whole problem is those areas which were under occupation for 3 decades and the indigenous people robbed off their identity?temari wrote: ↑04 Jul 2021, 01:07https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/worl ... iopia.htmlEven if the conflict ends soon, Mr. Debretsion said, Tigray’s future as part of Ethiopia is in doubt. “The trust has broken completely,” he said. “If they don’t want us, why should we stay?”
Still, he added, nothing has been decided: “It depends on the politics at the center.”
Ethiopians don't want anything to do TPLF, never ever! Tigray on the other hand can't live without TPLF. So, the best scenario is to work for a peaceful co-existence as good and cooperating neighboring countries that focus on developing their respective countries. The border issue is much easier than living together in hate and constant fighting. Hopefully Debretsion sees the hard reality that in the last 30 years TPLF completely destroyed the political bound between Ethiopia and Tigray and that the best political solution is to discuss about peaceful divorce.
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
There are a number of issues that will make the divorce you envisage to be impractical.
1) What is Tigray territoriality. You can't speak about Tigray before you define what the map of Tigray is. The Tigrayans might want to have "Western Tigray" to be part of their Tigray, while the people of "Western Tigray" would never agree to that.
2) What about other parts of Tigray like Enderta and Temben who have deep connections with their neighbours and might not want to be part of the Republic of Tigray, How does the divorce handle their wishes?
3) Then there are the separation woes:
a) The TPLF borrowed tens of billions of dollars in the name of Ethiopia and either looted it for personal enrichment or used it to build Tigray. What part of the debt does the republic of Tigray assume.
b) What about the large number of Tigrayans in Ethiopia. I hear figures like 1 million.
c) What will the future relations between the the two parties be, especially the Tigrayans and Amhara?
One can go on listing the difficulties. So a separation might bring more headaches than an uneasy union. In my view, the best solution is for the TPLF to fade away and let Tigrayans alone. They lived happily as Ethiopians for 27 years speaking Amharic and eating kitfo, so much so that a lot of them moved to Addis. Why should their fate be determined by a criminal clique that has been severely degraded. Eight months ago, the TPLF might have claimed Tigray=TPLF. Today Tigrayans are ashamed of it and only speak of TDF. Before long, some Tigrayan war-lord will emerge as the de facto leader and people like Getachew will either lose their neck or prefer to move to Kaliti. Let events take their course. The quarantine will teach Tigrayans to understand where their true interests are. All the noise that the TPLF thugs are making is because they know the noose is tightening. Now is not the time to speak about separation. Now is the time to make Tigrayans and their Western allies accept the reality that the best solution is the eradication of TPLF
1) What is Tigray territoriality. You can't speak about Tigray before you define what the map of Tigray is. The Tigrayans might want to have "Western Tigray" to be part of their Tigray, while the people of "Western Tigray" would never agree to that.
2) What about other parts of Tigray like Enderta and Temben who have deep connections with their neighbours and might not want to be part of the Republic of Tigray, How does the divorce handle their wishes?
3) Then there are the separation woes:
a) The TPLF borrowed tens of billions of dollars in the name of Ethiopia and either looted it for personal enrichment or used it to build Tigray. What part of the debt does the republic of Tigray assume.
b) What about the large number of Tigrayans in Ethiopia. I hear figures like 1 million.
c) What will the future relations between the the two parties be, especially the Tigrayans and Amhara?
One can go on listing the difficulties. So a separation might bring more headaches than an uneasy union. In my view, the best solution is for the TPLF to fade away and let Tigrayans alone. They lived happily as Ethiopians for 27 years speaking Amharic and eating kitfo, so much so that a lot of them moved to Addis. Why should their fate be determined by a criminal clique that has been severely degraded. Eight months ago, the TPLF might have claimed Tigray=TPLF. Today Tigrayans are ashamed of it and only speak of TDF. Before long, some Tigrayan war-lord will emerge as the de facto leader and people like Getachew will either lose their neck or prefer to move to Kaliti. Let events take their course. The quarantine will teach Tigrayans to understand where their true interests are. All the noise that the TPLF thugs are making is because they know the noose is tightening. Now is not the time to speak about separation. Now is the time to make Tigrayans and their Western allies accept the reality that the best solution is the eradication of TPLF
-
Digital Weyane
- Senior Member
- Posts: 10173
- Joined: 19 Jun 2019, 21:45
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
When the TPLF was in power the last 27 years, over 1.8 million people in Tigray were heavily dependent on American and Canadian food-aid for their survival. Now the numbers are even higher. 
In my humble Tigraway opinion, unless there is a treaty or an international agreement signed between the western world and Tigray to provide food-aid for the next 100 years, a secession for Tigray is a death sentence by mass starvation and famine.
The current problem can be solved easily if the few remaining TPLF leaders learn how to live like a minority group within Ethiopia. But that is a very difficult thing for them to do since they have developed an insatiable appetite for a monopoly of power in Ethiopia.
In my humble Tigraway opinion, unless there is a treaty or an international agreement signed between the western world and Tigray to provide food-aid for the next 100 years, a secession for Tigray is a death sentence by mass starvation and famine.
The current problem can be solved easily if the few remaining TPLF leaders learn how to live like a minority group within Ethiopia. But that is a very difficult thing for them to do since they have developed an insatiable appetite for a monopoly of power in Ethiopia.
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
sesame, Za-Ilmaknun, I’m speaking in relative terms. Yes the border issue is not easy but when Ethiopia and Tigray decide to separate, the border issue will be the only difficult problem to solve but if Tigray (with TPLF) stays in Ethiopia we will have the border issue plus many many more that will only deepen the hate and animosity. That’s what I meant we would have less problems if we separated.
sesame, Tigreans love TPLF criminals and will never divorce from them for the coming decades and as long as TPLF leads Tigray the hate and fighting between Ethiopia and Tigray will only worsen. I can’t think Ethiopians and Tigreans living in one country while TPLF is around. That’s impossible. The solution is realizing the impossibility of living together and start a peaceful separation process. Anything else is not realistic. Besides, much of the population from both sides seem already understood it and are willing to go on a separate route. The politicians should follow their people and start the process instead of taking us all in yet another catastrophic experiment. No more experiments, it’s time for divorce!
sesame, Tigreans love TPLF criminals and will never divorce from them for the coming decades and as long as TPLF leads Tigray the hate and fighting between Ethiopia and Tigray will only worsen. I can’t think Ethiopians and Tigreans living in one country while TPLF is around. That’s impossible. The solution is realizing the impossibility of living together and start a peaceful separation process. Anything else is not realistic. Besides, much of the population from both sides seem already understood it and are willing to go on a separate route. The politicians should follow their people and start the process instead of taking us all in yet another catastrophic experiment. No more experiments, it’s time for divorce!
Za-Ilmaknun wrote: ↑04 Jul 2021, 01:22How is the border issue much easier ? When in fact the center of the whole problem is those areas which were under occupation for 3 decades and the indigenous people robbed off their identity?temari wrote: ↑04 Jul 2021, 01:07https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/worl ... iopia.htmlEven if the conflict ends soon, Mr. Debretsion said, Tigray’s future as part of Ethiopia is in doubt. “The trust has broken completely,” he said. “If they don’t want us, why should we stay?”
Still, he added, nothing has been decided: “It depends on the politics at the center.”
Ethiopians don't want anything to do TPLF, never ever! Tigray on the other hand can't live without TPLF. So, the best scenario is to work for a peaceful co-existence as good and cooperating neighboring countries that focus on developing their respective countries. The border issue is much easier than living together in hate and constant fighting. Hopefully Debretsion sees the hard reality that in the last 30 years TPLF completely destroyed the political bound between Ethiopia and Tigray and that the best political solution is to discuss about peaceful divorce.
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
sesame, Tigreans love TPLF criminals and will never divorce from them for the coming decades and as long as TPLF leads Tigray the hate and fighting between Ethiopia and Tigray will only worsen.
Temari,
There is only one principle that rules Tigrayans, self-interest. The beauty of the quarantine is that it will teach Tigayans where their self-interest is. The TPLF is degraded beyond recognition. Gone are the days when the thugs were looked up as demigods. Tigrayans will throw them to the dogs once it becomes clear that they are dead. As I said, TPLF is now a four-letter word. They prefer TDF because they want to forget the humiliating defeat of the former. But what is the TDF but an incompetent rag-tag militia. All the drama is to convince Tigrayans that TDF is alive and well. So don't give up now. Give time to the new strategy of quarantining Tigray and making the eradication of TPLF as a precondition for easing up. I am convinced that within a few months, TPLF will be erased from the map. We may talk of separation if the policy fails. The kind of separation that you envisage is going to take years anyway. We shall see what comes first.
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
Every middle aged Western woman should adopt a few Tigray kids as pet and take them. Tigray can eventually depopulate and be left as a nature reserve. This also the”Tigrayan dream”. To be Western pet. Bob Geldof and his wife will take first few kids in special ceremony.
This is the solution.
This is the solution.
-
ethioscience
- Member
- Posts: 4101
- Joined: 01 Nov 2019, 17:37
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
A very very interesting question.
But I really doubt, that Agames can live peacefully with their HOA neighbours. In the last 200 years the agames have confronted all their neighbours at one time or the other; there has been a permanent confrontation with neighbours including Eritera, Sudan, Afar, Amhara ..etc Agames are a victim of their own Inferiority complexes. People who are motivated by the inferiority complex are always seeking the approval of others by waging a war or backstabbing others. The Agames need to deal with the root cause of their Inferiority complexes to live peacefully with their HOA neighbours otherwise things will get worse and they will be a liability for the whole HOA!!!
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
The new Lesotho is the solution
As complicated divorce it is, separation is the best path instead of continuing the unending feud between tigreas and their neighbors.
Tigreas are banda by nature and have stubbed and/or killed Amhara kings and Eritrean kings before (king Tewodros of Gonder and king weldemikael of Mereb melash ) respectively. And recently during tplf rule… the people who suffered the most are amara and Eritreans…
Divorce is the solution but they will continue to be a security risk to their neighbors by being telalaki of Egypt, Eu Us any body who can hire them… to minimize this threat they should never have a border with Sudan, but tekeze and mereb rivers are the borders
As complicated divorce it is, separation is the best path instead of continuing the unending feud between tigreas and their neighbors.
Tigreas are banda by nature and have stubbed and/or killed Amhara kings and Eritrean kings before (king Tewodros of Gonder and king weldemikael of Mereb melash ) respectively. And recently during tplf rule… the people who suffered the most are amara and Eritreans…
Divorce is the solution but they will continue to be a security risk to their neighbors by being telalaki of Egypt, Eu Us any body who can hire them… to minimize this threat they should never have a border with Sudan, but tekeze and mereb rivers are the borders
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
I'm posting Dr. Dagnachew's take on the future of Tigray not because I agree with all what he is saying but because I believe it reflects the views of many Ethiopians I spoke with. The new generation of Ethiopians have come to maturity and prefer living in peace than union at any cost. They have learned a lot from the old stupid generation that destroyed our country and made us poor for the sake of stupid union. I must say I'm very much delighted to see the political maturity of ordinary Ethiopians.
"ድሮ ቢሆን እንዲህ አላስብም ነበር፤ አንድነት ነበር የምለው። ያ የአንድነት ጨዋታ አሁን ቀረ"
"ድሮ ቢሆን እንዲህ አላስብም ነበር፤ አንድነት ነበር የምለው። ያ የአንድነት ጨዋታ አሁን ቀረ"
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
Tigreans, nothing personal but we are sick and tired of TPLF and have to separate from Tigray as long as TPLF is around. There is I think no other solution.
Even after the devastating war, TPLF just don't get it. It wants to still play the old outdated politics of Meskerem 30 and its usual crocodile tears for the constitution which itself was handling it as useless paper when TPLF was in power. These guys just don't get it how sick and tired Ethiopians are with TPLF criminals. We can't and must not allow us to suffer with TPLF forever.
Ethiopia may be forced to introduce a new law that says if a state attacks the federal government and is not willing to handover the criminals then the house of federation will expel the state out of the federation.
I'm now more than convinced, as long as the criminal mafia TPLF is around, we will never have peace and should force the state of Tigray into independence just like Malaysia did with Singapore. Even though the separation was painful at first, it ended up good for both Malaysia and even more for Singapore. Separation is not always bad and can sometimes can help heal wounds and I think we need it now more than ever.
Even after the devastating war, TPLF just don't get it. It wants to still play the old outdated politics of Meskerem 30 and its usual crocodile tears for the constitution which itself was handling it as useless paper when TPLF was in power. These guys just don't get it how sick and tired Ethiopians are with TPLF criminals. We can't and must not allow us to suffer with TPLF forever.
Ethiopia may be forced to introduce a new law that says if a state attacks the federal government and is not willing to handover the criminals then the house of federation will expel the state out of the federation.
I'm now more than convinced, as long as the criminal mafia TPLF is around, we will never have peace and should force the state of Tigray into independence just like Malaysia did with Singapore. Even though the separation was painful at first, it ended up good for both Malaysia and even more for Singapore. Separation is not always bad and can sometimes can help heal wounds and I think we need it now more than ever.
Re: How about independent Tigray living in peace with its neighbors?
Singapore sought merger with Malaysia to attain complete independence from British rule, without which it would have ended up as one of the British Oversees Territories like the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar. So the merger was necessitated by Singapore's need to be independent of British rule, although the two countries, Malaysia ruled by monarchy, and Singapore a young democracy, were incompatible.
In the case of Tigray, what the agame consider independence, is one that they expect to come at the expense of the Amhara and Eritrean people's sovereign territories, which not only threatens Tigray's existence, but could potentially make its people stateless Gypsies wandering aimlessly through the barren, inhospitable landscape of what is known today as Tigray, for eternity.
Their best bet is to remain in the Ethiopian union and accept their fate as an ethnic minority with a political power commensurate with their population size and resources. With the Amhara taking back the territories that were stolen from them by the agame, Tigray's population size has shrunk to as little as 4 million, and I'm even being generous here, because the number can be as low as 3 million agame.
In the case of Tigray, what the agame consider independence, is one that they expect to come at the expense of the Amhara and Eritrean people's sovereign territories, which not only threatens Tigray's existence, but could potentially make its people stateless Gypsies wandering aimlessly through the barren, inhospitable landscape of what is known today as Tigray, for eternity.
Their best bet is to remain in the Ethiopian union and accept their fate as an ethnic minority with a political power commensurate with their population size and resources. With the Amhara taking back the territories that were stolen from them by the agame, Tigray's population size has shrunk to as little as 4 million, and I'm even being generous here, because the number can be as low as 3 million agame.